Starting late June or early July

Espen1, Dienstag, 25. Februar 2014, 02:54 (vor 3725 Tagen)

Hi :-)

First off, I'm sorry for asking my question in english on a german forum. I'm norwegian and the german I learnt in school is mostly forgotten.

While walking in the german alps for a few days last summer (Lengries area I think) I came across a few people doing the hike from Munich to Venice that I later found out is the traumpfad Munchen-Venedig.

On to my question: I have to start work again early august, so I'm wondering if it's possible to start the walk in late june or early july. As I understand it the problem might arise when crossing the italian alps (?) since some of the passes have a lot of snow.

I haven't done a lot of research yet, but if it is possible to start this early I'll probably have a few more questions :-)

Thanks!

Best regards,
Espen

Starting late June or early July

Daniela @, Boulder, Colorado, Dienstag, 25. Februar 2014, 05:42 (vor 3725 Tagen) @ Espen1

Hi Espen,
I am planning to start end of June from Munich myself and also would love to hear from people who have experience with an early start around end of June/early July. From my research I think it should be possible depending on amount of snowfall during the winter and when the snow melt will start. My plan is to call a couple of the huts at the higher elevations a few weeks before I leave to check local conditions. It might be too early to forecast trail conditions in June/July this year at this point. Not sure about the Alps, I live in Colorado and the snow still keeps coming :-).
Thanks
Daniela

Starting late June or early July

K2 @, Dienstag, 25. Februar 2014, 22:46 (vor 3724 Tagen) @ Daniela

Hello Daniela and Espen.

I'm wondering if it's possible to start the walk in late june or early july.

Mmmh, of course it will be possible to start in Munich end of June, but I guess you'll get in trouble some days later ...

Probably one or more of the following Austrian legs in Karwendel, Tuxer Alpen will cause problems:

Day 6: Passing Birkkar after Karwendelhaus
Day 9: Passing Pluderlingsattel, Gschuetzspitzsattel after Lizumer Huette
Day 10: Passing Friesenbergscharte after Tuxer-Joch-Haus

As I understand it the problem might arise when crossing the italian alps (?)
since some of the passes have a lot of snow.

Usually Gliederscharte (day 12) has a lot of snow left on the Southern side until July, but the passing should be smaller problem, because terrain is easier and Northern part has typically less snow.

Next problematic passages like Roascharte (day 15) and the ascent to Pisciaduhuette (day 16) should be possible, when you arrive there.

Starting so early I highly recommend light crampons (Groedeln) for traversing hard snow fields and considering the hints of the local hut wardens including the current conditions !

You might need some flexibility and you might have to take account of alternatives for some legs on your way.

I haven't done a lot of research yet, but if it is possible to start
this early I'll probably have a few more questions

Feel free to ask further questions ...

From my research I think it should be possible depending on amount
of snowfall during the winter and when the snow melt will start.

The amount of snow falling within the winter is very often not the critical thing, but the weather from April to June.
E.g. last year most of the snow in South Tyrol had been gone very early, but a lot of new snow in May and a very cold June conserved it over mid of July !

My plan is to call a couple of the huts at the higher elevations a
few weeks before I leave to check local conditions.

Good idea, but very often "a few weeks before" is not sufficient, but "a few days before" at the beginning of the season is better - sometimes conditions change from day to day :-)

I recommend contacting:
- Karwendelhaus
- Lizumer Huette
- Tuxer-Joch-Haus
- Friesenberghaus
- Olperer Huette
- (Geraer Huette - alternative for day 10)
- (Gamshuette - another alternative for day 10)

It might be too
early to forecast trail conditions in June/July this year at this point.

Yeah, that's right.
But the big amount of snow within South and East Tyrol is very notable.

Happy hiking,
K2.

Starting late June or early July

Espen1, Freitag, 28. Februar 2014, 01:30 (vor 3722 Tagen) @ K2

Thanks for your answers K2, and hello Daniela!

I was kind of waiting for more answers, but I guess there are none to be had :-)

Perhaps you can help me some more. I don't understand the problem that I (or we) might run into if I start early. I gather that the places you mentioned has a lot of snow (depending on the weather april/june and amount of snow of course) and that will make it hard to pass. But what exactly is the problem? Is the snow so loose I can't walk on it? Is it somehow unsafe to pass these places? What, exactly, makes these areas unpassable?
Also, can the problem areas you mentioned be passed if I bring crampons and/or snowshoes? I don't mind hiking on snow if that means I can actually do the trip.

Please understand I don't want to be reckless or anything like that. I just want to understand the nature of the problems I might be facing and see if there are ways to mitigate them.
I really do want to do the walk this summer, and hate the thought of not knowing if it's at all possible until a week or so before I have to start. If I can't know for sure it will also make stuff like getting plane tickets, gearing up, alternate vacation plans etc more of a pain :-/

Thanks again!

Espen

Starting late June or early July

Jörg, Freitag, 28. Februar 2014, 15:51 (vor 3722 Tagen) @ Espen1

Hej Espen,
jag ska försöka att förklara problemet:

end of June beginning of July is often at the northern slopes much snow left over from winter, which forms snowfields. This is usually not the case for the slopes faced to the South, because of the sunshine at these positions. These old snowfields at the northern ascends are potentially problematic due to the fact, that the snow is melting during the days and freezes on the surface during the nights. By these repeating freeze/thaw cycles these snowfields becomes quite hard with an potential icy surface. Usually one has to pass these snowfields in the morning, when they are still icy.
The main problematic situation along the whole trip is in my eyes the Schlauchkar on the 6th day. There is the potential of snowfields especially at the upper part of the Schlauchkar, which reaches far down with high steepness. If one slip off at such positions, it´s difficult if not almost impossible to prevent a fall with high speed on the boulders below.
There are two possibilities one can do. Using crampons are advisable, at this early time in my opinion enevitable. As K2 mentioned, many M-V hiker using “Grödel”,i.e. small crampons with 4 spikes. If a lot of snow is still there one could think of taking bigger “real” ones with 10-12 spikes. To judge this and because rests of old snow is not a sudden problem and will be known weeks before one could call right before starting the trip at the Karwendelhaus and asking about the snow conditions.
The second possibility is to completely circumvend the Schlauchkar by using the alternative route from the Karwendelhaus to the Hallangerhaus via Scharnitz. This route is not as spectacular as the original way and quite long, but by taking this route one can bypass dangerous situations.
I think the Schlauchkar is the bottleneck in respect to snow. K2 mentioned as well Pluderingsattel, Geschützspitzsattel and Friesenbergscharte. All these are mostly impossible to go if there is still snow on their southern slopes, because it´s very steep at the south sides at all of them. But at the south sides the snow should have gone as mentioned above. But if there are only snowfields at the northern slopes, I think one can pass these ascends at least with crampons, but I am not completely sure about that. That depends largely on the skills one has on snow. But you as a Norwegian…

Taken together your early start can raise some problems with old snowfields, which can be icy and therefore be dangerous. But this winter in central Europe was so far not a winter you are used to in Norway. It was comparatively warm and there was little snow in the Northern Alps. This of course can change and there might come more snow during spring. So one cannot judge by now, whether an early start will be problem in 2014.
It´s not completely fixed, but my plan for this year is to start at the last weekend in June in Munich, så kanske vi ses.

Lycka till!

Jörg

Starting late June or early July

Espen1, Samstag, 01. März 2014, 17:22 (vor 3721 Tagen) @ Jörg

Thanks for your answer Jörg, cleared things up for me!

I've decided that I'll go ahead with the walk starting sometime late June, barring any abnormal weather conditions in the area that substantially changes things.
I'll bring some proper crampons and take it day by day. I'll likely try to cross the snowfields I do come across and only go alternate routes if things look really bad (and after talking to local people on the huts).

If anyone would like to contact me via email with any advice or whatever, click on users in the top right, browse to Espen1 and you should be able to email me from there.

Jörg: If you could contact me via email so I can contact you (doh) that would be cool. Sounds like you've done the trip before and/or have relevant experience, and I'd like to bounce som ideas etc.


Thanks guys!
Espen

Critical Passages (with some pictures)

K2 @, Samstag, 01. März 2014, 21:11 (vor 3720 Tagen) @ Espen1

Hello Espen.

Jörg already wrote a lot of details and explanations on the problems with fields of hard snow and the corresponding dangers.

One might add: In addition rain is also working on compressing the snow and increasing the humidity, which might get iced up.

In general the southern parts of the gorges are more difficult to go, but earlier free from snow (Pluderlingsattel, Gschuetzspitzsattel, Friesenbergscharte), of the mentioned only Gliederscharte is vice-versa: Southern part has longer snow but is easy to go.

Some samples of the last years, including some maps with colored inclines:

yellow: >= 30° and < 35° (>= 58%)
orange: >= 35° and < 40° (>= 70%)
red: >= 40° (>= 84%)

Day 06:
Schlauchkar/Birkkar

[image]
Profile

[image]
Descend


Day 09:
Pluderlingsattel

[image]
Profile

[image]
Descend


Gschuetzspitzsattel

[image]
Profile

[image]
Ascend

[image]
Descend


Day 10:
Friesenbergscharte

[image]
Profile

[image]
Ascend

[image]
Ascend mid of JULY 2013 (still closed and bridge not installed)

[image]
Descend 1

[image]
Descend 2

[image]
Descend 3

[image]
Descend Complete

[image]
Decend mid of JULY 2013 (still closed)


Day 12:
Gliederscharte

[image]
Profile

[image]
Descend


K2.

Critical Passages (with some pictures)

Espen1, Mittwoch, 05. März 2014, 17:22 (vor 3717 Tagen) @ K2

K2,

Thanks again for your help, the profiles/GPS tracks and pictures are great! I've ordered a guide bookwhich I'll try to understand using what german I do remeber (should be an interesting exercise).

Espen

Starting late June or early July

unbekannt, Dienstag, 18. März 2014, 06:36 (vor 3704 Tagen) @ Jörg

:-D :-D :-D happuying

Starting late June or early July

Kate @, Montag, 12. Mai 2014, 17:36 (vor 3649 Tagen) @ K2

I am going to start my trip quite early too. I guess I will be in Munich at the 10-12 of July and I just hope that there isn't too much snow left. Would bei nice to meet some of you :-D

Starting late June or early July

Espen1, Dienstag, 13. Mai 2014, 23:46 (vor 3647 Tagen) @ Kate

Hi Kate!

I'll start my trip on the morning of June 26th, so I guess I won't be able to meet you. But I'll be in Munich the day before (25 June) so if anyone wants to grab a beer I'm in :-)

Espen

Starting late June or early July

Kate @, Mittwoch, 14. Mai 2014, 20:11 (vor 3646 Tagen) @ Espen1

Hi Espen,
I 'd really enjoy to drink a beer with you in Munich, but I live 650 km far away - more or less in North Germany which always depends on the point of view.:-D

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